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...is not the same as the death of a human. I'm speaking for ranch foxes, per say. Not more intelligent creatures like elephants or monkeys. 

There are a lot of issues going around right now regarding anti-fur people. Anti-fur people, let me explain to you why it is not morally wrong to kill a ranch fox.

Wait, let me establish that killing is a fact of life. Everyone has killed something in some way or another, no matter what age. Anything with a life can be killed, whether it be a bug (which we ALL know we have killed at one point in our lives), or a human being. If you squash a bug, you just murdered something--took away its life. Even though it doesn't have the brain capacity to understand that it's about to die--like foxes, which we kill, too.

Anti-fur people tend to over-dramatize the death of a ranch animal. Here's the thing: Animals like foxes don't realize they're about to die. Which makes the experience of its death--for it--not a scary thing. It's not going to panic, bow down on its furry knees, and beg for its life to be spared. It's not going to ask that you spare its friend in exchange for its own life.

If we were to ranch humans, on the other hand, for whatever reason, they would KNOW they're about to die because our brains are developed enough to know this. That's what makes it morally wrong to kill a human in whatever freak situation where they are about to die and are aware of who their killer is. It would be terrifying to a human to know they're about to die--they would be SCARED. 

Animals like foxes will never know that fear because they don't understand death, how death occurs, why it's going to happen, or even when it's going to happen.
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QueenDe-de-de Featured By Owner Feb 6, 2015  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
I can see your point and understand why you think this isnt wrong, I dont want to be an asshole since this is the first time I visit your deviantart. I just wanted to point that elephants and monkeys are really smart they understand what time is, what death is and what family is, yes chimps go crazy sometimes but that doesnt think their brains are undeveloped, you can see a lot of stupid humans and that has nothing to do with their brains, they are just stupid. Yes, we kill to eat, pigs are smarter than most dogs, I dont think hes very happy living his whole life in a cage hearing his fellow porks being killed and smelling putrid all day. The same thing applies to the foxes. If this what you love to do by all means, keep on doing, im as guilty for the dead of animals as you are because I eat meat almost everyday but dont go sugar coating stuff, what we do by caging animals their whole lives is no difference that if someone cages humans and they never learn anything about life but being caged, I know farms help foxes population from reducing them so thats nice. Im really sorry for broken english, I dont want to make you feel awful or anything. Its not related but its what I told you about humans and cages vimeo.com/79279786
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PrimusGod Featured By Owner Feb 6, 2015
Foxes don't really have the mental capacity to be unhappy living in a cage when it's all they know. Pigs might--I haven't done research on that so I don't really have anything to back that up), but pigs are raised for meat, which is essential in an average human's diet. Foxes are raised for their fur. Nonessential. 
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FenrisMau Featured By Owner Dec 29, 2014  Hobbyist Artisan Crafter
Although I agree with killing ranch foxes, I will throw in that many human individuals with mental disorders also lack the capacity to understand they are about to die, if the scenario was presented.
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No1GarDehT Featured By Owner May 24, 2014  Student General Artist
I have nothing against furs as long as the animal isn't tortured or skinned alive (as they do in China sometimes). But saying animals don't fear death I wouldn't agree on. Animals do fear death. Even if they don't know it's going to happen. Otherwise they like other animals would strive so hard to live in the wilderness. Animals do have emotions. Some birds commit suicide when their mate dies because its just that painful. And I witnessed a mother dog cry for ten minutes straight in the middle of te street when her last puppy was taken from her. So yes. They fear death just as much as us  even if they don't know when it will happen. But it's not like all those people who have died in car crashes or terrorist attacks knew they were gonna die when they did. But that's life. Always throwing surprises at us. 
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:iconprimusgod:
PrimusGod Featured By Owner May 25, 2014
Actually, they don't skin animals alive in China. That was a video staged by PETA, who told the workers to skin those raccoon dogs alive. The workers were confused as to why PETA wanted them to do it, but they did it anyway. 

Skinning an animal alive will damage the pelt and more than likely get blood on it, and the more blood there is, the more time it takes to clean it. That's time any fur farmer would not want to waste. Obviously China wouldn't go about skinning live animals because it's dangerous and a waste of time.

I didn't say ALL animals didn't fear death. In fact, I never said that an animal doesn't fear death at all. Of course any living thing fears death if it is given the mental capacity to. What I said here was that foxes aren't given the opportunity to fear death because they don't understand/know that it's going to happen to them on a fur farm. NOT that they can't fear death.

By the way, crying or killing oneself over the death of another is not showing fear of death. It is showing sadness, so please don't try to combine those two events with some notion of animals fearing death, thanks. 
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No1GarDehT Featured By Owner May 25, 2014  Student General Artist
Well some (notice i say some) people eat dead babies there. This isn't a joke. I've seen a pictured of it. 
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PrimusGod Featured By Owner May 27, 2014
I'm not sure why you're bringing up them eating dead babies, because it has nothing to do with this. 
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AuBurneyT-Keswick Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014  Hobbyist Artist
TO QUOTE POPS FROM 'REGULAR SHOW': GOOD SHOW! JOLLY GOOD SHOW INDEED! :highfive:
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:iconbeau-diddly:
beau-diddly Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
If we were ranched, how would we know we were going to die if no one told us?

I'm sure if somehow you could 'tell' a fox it was going to die, it would be somewhat distressed.  I mean, even bacteria will attempt to avoid a situation that will kill them..! Anyone who's ever owned a pet dog/cat or watched migrating birds must consider that higher life forms probably have a sense of 'in the future' as opposed to the present, if not a developed sense of time.

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:iconprimusgod:
PrimusGod Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014
Because we learn and interpret much more quickly and better than animals like foxes. 

That's why we can also talk but they can't. Even if we are raised on a ranch as babies, we will pick up on the language and figure out what happens. Word would spread from ranched human to ranched human when someone is killed, or when the season for killing is near. 

If a fox KNEW that killing was happening, it probably would be warning other foxes about it, and they would struggle whenever a handler comes to take them. Of course, that doesn't happen because they don't KNOW nor UNDERSTAND that they will die. I've seen enough foxes on the ranch being killed to know that there's no such thing as a spreading panic between foxes whenever she goes out to kill a selection of them. 

I have owned both a cat and a dog, and neither have ever had a sense of "in the future", whatever the heck that is supposed to mean. 

You're talking about migrating birds, which is completely different from the topic of "killing an animal". That's hundreds of years of instinct telling them to move to warmer climate because it will be cold and they will die if they don't. Dogs don't migrate. Cats don't migrate. Because they're domestic. The migration thing doesn't really have a place here because it's domestic versus wild. 
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:iconbeau-diddly:
beau-diddly Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
That's like saying foxes bark and we don't. How a species communicates is hardly relevant to whether they fear death or not.

'In the future', as in a domestic animal 'learns' what time its owner normally comes home or what time they normally get fed/go for a walk.

Of course it is instinct- just like avoiding something that will kill you- but it's also something that requires stocking up on energy reserves, picking a day when the weather is good, etc, all skills which suggest the animal has a concept of something happening in the future.

But my entire point was that foxes (or any animal bred for food or fur or whatever) probably don't fear death because they don't know it's going to happen. If, however, they did know, they possibly would fear it.

Kind of like putting your hand on a hot stove. If you didn't know it was hot, you probably wouldn't mind putting your hand on it. If you did, then (hopefully) you would think twice about touching it.


"Animals like foxes will never know that fear because they don't understand death, how death occurs, why it's going to happen, or even when it's going to happen" is somewhat an odd statement. Why do foxes run when my dogs chase them or get out of the way of a moving vehicle? Could it be that they perceive danger and take steps to avoid it?
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PrimusGod Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014
All that migrating animal is doing is predicting what will happen in the future, not actually knowing what will happen. It doesn't know if it's going to die because the weather was too crappy too many days for it to migrate, or if it'd be perfect weather for its chance to fly. 

Your entire point was basically my entire point. xD 

Foxes run when your dogs chase because it's instinct. Foxes would also run from coyotes and wolves and humans (wild foxes we're talking about here) because it's perceived danger. All they know is that it's bad, and that these giant monsters' touch is bad. They do not know the consequences of what would happen if they were to get caught by one of these dangers. 

Even if their mother was killed in front of them by, say, a wolf, by the wolf tearing him up, that fear was already manifested by hundreds of years of instinct being bred into them. Then again, this is a bad example, because mothers are what teach the pups to fear the big monsters, and if it dies from a wolf, the fox is more likely to take that wolf as its mentor (assuming the wolf doesn't destroy it by then xD). I mean, instincts may have kicked in if the pup would be OLDER, but not in one so young. Gahhhghghh, so many POSSIBILITIES to this theory. Too little time to explain it all! 8D
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:iconbeau-diddly:
beau-diddly Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014  Hobbyist Traditional Artist
That was me trying to prove my crap about 'in the future', lol... I am aware that animals can't see into the future...

Yeah, I know :aww:
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:iconfancyfoxtaxidermy:
FancyFoxTaxidermy Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
horses are really emotional , so are cats and dogs... they fear death...i see it... it sickens me... they await in a cage for their death...it sounds like a ranch eh...only thing is that ranched foxes are bred for the cage..dogs and cats..are put in the cage. thats how i see it. 

at the local horse sales, the horses...you can see they are willing to do anything for you to  stop the cull... they all look sad, confused, scared and neglected. its actually illegal from what i remember to slaughter a horse infront of another cause of the emotions they have..it freaks the others out. horses are herd creatures and thats why. you will notice that with a lot of herd based animals. as the aim in the herd is to keep each other safe and its like a family bond.  

thats how i see it. 

i am not innocent...i kill ants...i hate ants....i really flipping hate them. I eat meat. i want to start hunting. i like ranched animals. 

i am really starting to get sick of this crap..we keep having big brawls with everyone it seems. 
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:iconprimusgod:
PrimusGod Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014
Ants are nasty! Burn them all down! Firelite-photo 

It really depends on the type of creature. Foxes aren't really group creatures, and ranched ones are accustomed to living in cages, so it doesn't freak them out. If they don't show signs of unhappiness or otherwise from being in a cage, there's nothing really "wrong" with it. If they're shown inflicting bodily harm on themselves trying to get out, that would be considered animal cruelty. But you don't see huge events of this happening, which is why ranch foxes are still legal. They're OK with being in a cage. 

I don't really have much experience with horses, so I wouldn't be able to give you my opinion on that, but I've heard they're pretty intelligent, so I'll take your word for it! Yeah, a herd would generally freak out if an animal died, horse or otherwise. xD  I would too lol!
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:iconfancyfoxtaxidermy:
FancyFoxTaxidermy Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
horses are very intelligent creatures..they sure know how to push my buttons!  i was riding a horse (crackers this horses name is) for someone and that bloody horse was being so naughty...running me itfo the fence. not following my instructions! 

when i rode someone elses horse..i rode it better then them and got it doing everything! so they decided they didnt want to be my friend lol!  their horse was a complete bitch though...like owner like pet! tried to throw me off..but i still got it to jump and canter with no struggles and that was why she bitched about me to my hunting buddy and all this crap lol!  

if you are a confident the rider, the horse will listen better. I got really nervous riding crackers and thats why he didnt listen. I was really confident while riding the other girls horse to prove i could ride as good as her (she has 10 years riding experience) and thats why i got her horse to canter (it would not canter for her as she lacked confidence after her horse throwing her off)  

these beasts are just to intelligent lol! they can feel your emotions..thats what scares me about them...if your scared they are, if your brave, they are. 
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:iconopinionsprofile:
OpinionsProfile Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014
You must have smarter horses than me.
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:iconfancyfoxtaxidermy:
FancyFoxTaxidermy Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
Haha. I ride a state level eventing thoroughbred for someone and a quarter horse at lessons.
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Clockwork--Crow Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014  Hobbyist General Artist
Thank you. Just, thank you for this.
:clap:
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PrimusGod Featured By Owner Jan 17, 2014
:bow:
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